<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1301</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 3 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1301<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Emperors of the Rule of Man #8<BR>
Re: Diplomacy - I don't have any....<BR>
Re: BD Crush Depth (was Freezing in the Aleutians)<BR>
Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
Re: Critical Mass<BR>
Re: Emperors of the Rule of Man #8<BR>
[OT] RE: Of Coke and Correlations<BR>
RE: Border Guards<BR>
RE: Border Guards<BR>
Re: Critical Mass<BR>
Re: Emperors of the Rule of Man #8<BR>
Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
Re: Solomani Rim data<BR>
Re: Solomani Rim data<BR>
RE: Solomani Rim data<BR>
Glitches after maintenance<BR>
RE: Violent Outlet<BR>
Hmmm..toys....<BR>
Yet another robot<BR>
RE: Violent Outlet<BR>
ignorance of the law and secret laws<BR>
RE: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
Re: ignorance of the law and secret laws<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:05:18 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Emperors of the Rule of Man #8<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, Mick Bailey wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> 11 - Hideki (Admiral Hideki Morimotu)<BR>
> <BR>
I've never seen "Morimotu" as a name before and most Japanese names do<BR>
follow certain rules being as only certain kanji are generally used in<BR>
them.  Is it possible that this was a typo and that the proper name was<BR>
"Morimoto"?  That would make more sense-- I know what the characters would<BR>
be and everything, although sending them to this list isn't possible.<BR>
<BR>
(Does anyone still have the info on Emperor Hiroshi or did we not get to<BR>
that yet?  I wanna see that one!  If his Empress's name was Kiri I will<BR>
fall over laughing!)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:12:03 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Diplomacy - I don't have any....<BR>
<BR>
>Okay Leonard, [Hasan chop!]<BR>
<BR>
Eek!<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:19:47 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BD Crush Depth (was Freezing in the Aleutians)<BR>
<BR>
>You must only use cheap calculators. Even my *old* TI calc uses order<BR>
>of precedence.<BR>
><BR>
>- --<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
<BR>
Four Function Dollar Store Special. Never buy I watch I'd cry over if it got<BR>
stomped in an elephant stampede either. :)<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:30:03 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
<BR>
>A trip to Home Despot and a few hand tools are all it takes to make fully<BR>
>automatic subguns.  Look up the Sten gun.<BR>
<BR>
Phoolan Devi taught me all I know about "Sten guns".  :)<BR>
<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:37:01 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Critical Mass<BR>
<BR>
At 4:02 -0500 3/11/99, j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete) wrote:<BR>
> >( The BBC model B, and the later ARM based systems. )<BR>
><BR>
>Aren't most people born with dual processor arm based computers?? I<BR>
>understand they're limited to displaying ten digits (shop teachers<BR>
>usually display fewer than ten.)<BR>
><BR>
>;-)<BR>
<BR>
You're handwaving again....<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
                        MiB - Marines in Battledress<BR>
    "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"<BR>
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 11:57:44 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Emperors of the Rule of Man #8<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, Mick Bailey wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > 11 - Hideki (Admiral Hideki Morimotu)<BR>
> ><BR>
> I've never seen "Morimotu" as a name before and most Japanese names do<BR>
> follow certain rules being as only certain kanji are generally used in<BR>
> them.  Is it possible that this was a typo and that the proper name was<BR>
> "Morimoto"?  That would make more sense-- I know what the characters would<BR>
> be and everything, although sending them to this list isn't possible.<BR>
> <BR>
> (Does anyone still have the info on Emperor Hiroshi or did we not get to<BR>
> that yet?  I wanna see that one!  If his Empress's name was Kiri I will<BR>
> fall over laughing!)<BR>
<BR>
[From GURPS Traveller, page 59 (sidebar):]<BR>
<BR>
    "Admiral Hiroshi Estigarribia, the commander-in-chief of the Terran<BR>
Navy, realized that the [Terran] Confederation government could not<BR>
possibly control the vast territories of the [former Vilani] Imperium. <BR>
He proclaimed himself regent of the Vilani Imperium and protector of<BR>
Terra, with both states united in the Rule of Man.<BR>
<BR>
    "...Upon Estigarribia's death, his chief of staff succeeded him and<BR>
crowned himself Emperor Hiroshi II.  Estigarribia did not actually<BR>
assume the crown, but his government is known as that of Emperor Hiroshi<BR>
I."<BR>
<BR>
Sorry; no mention is made of the spouses/consorts (if any) of either<BR>
Hiroshi....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 12:57:28 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: [OT] RE: Of Coke and Correlations<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>As for correlational stats, one thing I'll always remember is<BR>
>the assertion by my most recent stats teacher that "A .2 or .3<BR>
>correlation means nothing, that's just the background correlation<BR>
>of the universe".<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	That's an interesting way of putting it.  On the other hand,<BR>
	there are a few issues to be considered.  A statistical<BR>
	correlation can be computed for most any two variables,<BR>
	an it will rarely be zero (indicating no correlation), even<BR>
	when the variables are entirely unrelated.  This is due to<BR>
	random variation in the variables.  Of course, if the<BR>
	variables are related, the computed correlation will tend<BR>
	to be farther from zero.  The statistical question is then<BR>
	"what is the probability that I could have found a<BR>
	correlation this strong if, in fact, there is no<BR>
	relationship between these variables?"  For typical samples,<BR>
	a correlation of 0.2 to 0.3 would not be uncommon when the<BR>
	variables are unrelated, but for very large samples even a<BR>
	correlation of 0.1 might be statistically significant.<BR>
	Whether such a relationship is significant to anyone will<BR>
	depend on the variables and the reason for the analysis.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 13:00:54 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Border Guards<BR>
<BR>
Danny Moody writes:<BR>
>Having made the trip from AK to the lower 48 through Canada<BR>
>many times, getting stuff through that border is child's play.<BR>
>Inspection? Hah!  the border guard asked me if I had any<BR>
>firearms, I said no, and they waved me through.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	But if you said no, then you didn't have any guns, right?<BR>
<BR>
	:-E<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Do planets vary in how careful they are in enforcing law level<BR>
restrictions on characters exiting the starport?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:12:14 -0600 <BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Border Guards<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Ian Ferguson [mailto:ian@vax2.concordia.ca]<BR>
> <BR>
> Danny Moody writes:<BR>
> >Having made the trip from AK to the lower 48 through Canada<BR>
> >many times, getting stuff through that border is child's play.<BR>
> >Inspection? Hah!  the border guard asked me if I had any<BR>
> >firearms, I said no, and they waved me through.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> <BR>
> 	But if you said no, then you didn't have any guns, right?<BR>
> <BR>
> 	:-E<BR>
<BR>
I refuse to answer the question, Your Honor, on the grounds that I may<BR>
incriminate myself.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  How common is the non-self incrimination right in planetary law?<BR>
Is it a low law level concept, high LL concept, or does it span both?<BR>
Is it allowed in Imperial Law courts?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:33:51 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Critical Mass<BR>
<BR>
SPLOOORK! <BR>
<BR>
This isn't even my keyboard you just ruined, Dom!<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 4:02 -0500 3/11/99, j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete) wrote:<BR>
> > >( The BBC model B, and the later ARM based systems. )<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Aren't most people born with dual processor arm based computers?? I<BR>
> >understand they're limited to displaying ten digits (shop teachers<BR>
> >usually display fewer than ten.)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> You're handwaving again....<BR>
> <BR>
> Dom<BR>
> <BR>
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
>                         MiB - Marines in Battledress<BR>
>     "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"<BR>
> Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:46:20 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Emperors of the Rule of Man #8<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > (Does anyone still have the info on Emperor Hiroshi or did we not get to<BR>
> > that yet?  I wanna see that one!  If his Empress's name was Kiri I will<BR>
> > fall over laughing!)<BR>
> <BR>
> [From GURPS Traveller, page 59 (sidebar):]<BR>
> <BR>
>     "Admiral Hiroshi Estigarribia, the commander-in-chief of the Terran<BR>
> Navy, realized that the [Terran] Confederation government could not<BR>
> possibly control the vast territories of the [former Vilani] Imperium. <BR>
> He proclaimed himself regent of the Vilani Imperium and protector of<BR>
> Terra, with both states united in the Rule of Man.<BR>
> <BR>
>     "...Upon Estigarribia's death, his chief of staff succeeded him and<BR>
> crowned himself Emperor Hiroshi II.  Estigarribia did not actually<BR>
> assume the crown, but his government is known as that of Emperor Hiroshi<BR>
> I."<BR>
> <BR>
> Sorry; no mention is made of the spouses/consorts (if any) of either<BR>
> Hiroshi....<BR>
> <BR>
Ah well.  What kind of a last name is Estigarribia?  I just am still<BR>
laughing over whoever it was that asked me how my ex-friend came to know<BR>
the Emperor Hiroshi!<BR>
<BR>
Kiri =)<BR>
<BR>
(it's good to be queen...LOL!)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 11:02:29 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
<BR>
>From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
...<BR>
>>Not personally. But alcohol is easy to make -- I've done it myself (my<BR>
>>dad and I used to make our own beer). I know of very few people who are<BR>
>>able to manufacture automatic and semi-automatic weapons in their own<BR>
>>homes...<BR>
><BR>
>Any time you say, "No, you can not do X", even if you never wanted to do X, <BR>
>you will now because it is forbidden fruit.<BR>
<BR>
  Oh! Now you've done it!<BR>
    ...must buy hand-guns, hand-guns _good_ ...<BR>
<BR>
  My gods, I'm turning into a Traveller character!  Classic, I hope  :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 18:35:28 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim data<BR>
<BR>
At 00:16 03/11/1999 EST, you wrote:<BR>
>Hmmmm.<BR>
><BR>
>Has anyone ever noticed that the worlds of the Solomani Rim don't<BR>
>appear to have been generated using the standard CT rules?<BR>
><BR>
>Picking an example at random, take 1738 Hamilcar A26A9AA-E.<BR>
><BR>
>I can buy a world of size 2 having a type 6 atmosphere.  That just needs<BR>
>a roll of 11 on 2d6.  Rare, but possible (although there seem to be a lot<BR>
>of similar cases in this set).<BR>
><BR>
>Can anyone explain to me how a world of size 2 can have a hydrographic<BR>
>code of A?  How do you roll a 15 or higher on 2d6?<BR>
><BR>
>Anyone have any insights?  I need to figure out what to do with these<BR>
>super-implausible worlds. . .and taking a bottle of white-out to the<BR>
>canonical UWPs is starting to look tempting.<BR>
<BR>
hydrographics is 2d6-7 + atmosphere (not size)<BR>
<BR>
so "nature" just rolled another 11.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 11:15:15 PST<BR>
From: "Brandon Cope" <copeab@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim data<BR>
<BR>
>From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
>To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
>Subject: Solomani Rim data<BR>
>Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 00:16:28 EST<BR>
><BR>
>Hmmmm.<BR>
><BR>
>Has anyone ever noticed that the worlds of the Solomani Rim don't<BR>
>appear to have been generated using the standard CT rules?<BR>
><BR>
>Picking an example at random, take 1738 Hamilcar A26A9AA-E.<BR>
><BR>
>I can buy a world of size 2 having a type 6 atmosphere.  That just needs<BR>
>a roll of 11 on 2d6.  Rare, but possible (although there seem to be a lot<BR>
>of similar cases in this set).<BR>
><BR>
>Can anyone explain to me how a world of size 2 can have a hydrographic<BR>
>code of A?  How do you roll a 15 or higher on 2d6?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
IIRC, hydrographics was modified by _atmosphere_, not _planetary size_.<BR>
<BR>
I think the rolls were:<BR>
<BR>
Diameter: 2d-2<BR>
Atmosphere: 2d-7+Diameter<BR>
Hydrographics: 2d-7+Atmosphere<BR>
<BR>
So, in the above case, you'd need to roll 11 or 12 on 2d6.<BR>
<BR>
A generous and sadistic GM,<BR>
<BR>
Brandon Cope<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:25:10 -0000 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@exchange.rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Solomani Rim data<BR>
<BR>
Brandon Cope wrote:<BR>
> From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
> > Has anyone ever noticed that the worlds of the Solomani Rim<BR>
> > don't appear to have been generated using the standard CT<BR>
> >  rules?<BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
> I think the rolls were:<BR>
><BR>
> Diameter: 2d-2<BR>
> Atmosphere: 2d-7+Diameter<BR>
> Hydrographics: 2d-7+Atmosphere<BR>
><BR>
> So, in the above case, you'd need to roll 11 or 12 on 2d6.<BR>
<BR>
Also, GDW sometimes applied  arbitary  modifiers  to  sectors  to<BR>
change the "flavour" ... like DM +1 on population  rolls  on  all<BR>
worlds in the Solomani Rim (for example) to indicate it had  been<BR>
settled a long time.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
"If the ship is sinking - maybe the rats have a point"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 19:42:00 +0000<BR>
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net><BR>
Subject: Glitches after maintenance<BR>
<BR>
My players are currently having their ship undergo repairs/annual maintenance in<BR>
a lower tech starport than the ship. They are also performing self-maintenance<BR>
on the jump drive, fusion reactor and thrusters, as well as using an<BR>
experimental jump drive component.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone have any nice glitches I can throw at them during the shakedown?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:42:00 -0800<BR>
From: "David & Kristin Larson" <davidlarson@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Violent Outlet<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 22:38:37 -0500<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Violent Outlet (Was Re: A Day of Peace)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:44 AM 11/3/99 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
>The strange story I heard about was that there was a direct correlation<BR>
>between the number of daiper pins sold each year and the US road toll! It<BR>
>came up in a short story by (I think) Theodore Sturgeon called "Occam's<BR>
>Scalpel"<BR>
>(a darn good read, too) and I had heard it somewhere else, before that.<BR>
<BR>
A standard and well known example of this is the correlation between<BR>
women's skirt length and sunspots.  Both seem to be on an 11 year cycle...<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
There's also an obscure relationship (IIRC) between popular colors of<BR>
women's underclothes and popular colors of automobiles for the next year or<BR>
two.<BR>
<BR>
David Larson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:48:11 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Hmmm..toys....<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/1999/11/02/MN51881.DTL&type=printable<BR>
<BR>
An article about a robotic fly being developed for surveillance uses...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:53:16 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Yet another robot<BR>
<BR>
seems like robo day today...<BR>
This one's a wee bit ickier than a flybot<BR>
<BR>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_503000/503149.stm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:08:28 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: RE: Violent Outlet<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, David & Kristin Larson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> There's also an obscure relationship (IIRC) between popular colors of<BR>
> women's underclothes and popular colors of automobiles for the next year or<BR>
> two.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, on the face of it, that's not really all that strange a<BR>
correlation. Color choice is a serious business; on big ticket items like<BR>
automotive manufacturing lines, adding the wrong color to the mix can cost<BR>
millions, so they hire people whose job it is to scout out new color<BR>
preferences.<BR>
<BR>
Womens underwear (and other, lowcost, almost disposable items) are where<BR>
color preference 'experimentation' takes place by consumers; if a new<BR>
color starts becoming more and more popular, it'll will show up there<BR>
first. This is where the 'color scouts' look for emerging trends.<BR>
<BR>
Why this means we don't have black, lacy cars, I don't know ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:27:43 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: ignorance of the law and secret laws<BR>
<BR>
(Disclaimer: I am an attorney, but none of the<BR>
following is to be taken as legal advice (nor is<BR>
anything else I may say on the TML or elsewhere<BR>
without specifically identifying it as such in<BR>
response to a request for legal advice from a<BR>
client).)<BR>
<BR>
We've been talking about whether or in what situations<BR>
ignorance of the law excuses violating the law.  The<BR>
answer depends mostly on the type of society. <BR>
Societies that strive to protect individuals against<BR>
the government (like the USA, as only one example)<BR>
generally require that laws be part of the public<BR>
record, accessible to anyone, before they can be<BR>
enforced.  The idea is that it is not fair for<BR>
individuals to be unable to know what conduct is<BR>
prohibited or regulated.<BR>
<BR>
Other societies may have laws that are secret, and it<BR>
may even be a crime to know the contents of those laws<BR>
without proper authorization.  In this way, the<BR>
citizenry are kept afraid that they are unwittingly<BR>
committing crimes, and the police can always accuse<BR>
them of criminal conduct and use that as leverage to<BR>
obtain an advantage.  ("Comrade Shopkeeper, I've<BR>
examined your books and records, and there appear to<BR>
be violations of the secret currency laws.  I will<BR>
allow you to put them in order, and I will return in<BR>
two days to review them again.  I am sure that they<BR>
will be in good order at that time.  In addition, I<BR>
would like to enjoy the company of your daughter<BR>
between now and then. Do we have an understanding?")<BR>
<BR>
A related issue is highlighted by the following<BR>
extremes:<BR>
<BR>
Everything not prohibited is allowed.<BR>
Everything not allowed is prohibited.<BR>
Everything not prohitibed is mandatory, and everything<BR>
not mandatory is prohibited.  <BR>
<BR>
Which extreme more closely describes the society in<BR>
question?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:40:48 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
<BR>
The weapons ban in the UK would be considered extreme by many other<BR>
countries. It is far easier to say what is permitted than what is banned -<BR>
for instance we are not permitted to carry clubs.<BR>
<BR>
We are allowed to carry knives with a blade less than 4 inches in length,<BR>
but not any form of flick-knife, drop-knife or clasp-knife (where the blade<BR>
can be released one-handed, in effect).<BR>
<BR>
We are allowed to wear rings provided that they are not clearly for<BR>
offensive purposes (so, no spiked rings or joined rings like<BR>
knuckledusters).<BR>
<BR>
A few people - mainly farmers - are allowed to use shotguns.<BR>
<BR>
We are allowed to use airguns.<BR>
<BR>
If we are found to be carrying even permitted weapons in public then the<BR>
police can charge us with carrying offensive weapons, although they have to<BR>
prove we are likely to use them in a fight. We are not permitted to carry<BR>
any weapons uncovered. There has been protest at the changes, particularly<BR>
from target-range shooters like myself. However, the vast majority of the UK<BR>
public approve of these laws.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
Sent: 02 November 1999 20:32<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 21:29 -0500 1/11/99, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:<BR>
>AFIAK Japan has a near total ban on firearms, and England is coming<BR>
>close, so I'd say not necessarily (though a 1984 style police state for<BR>
>sure).<BR>
<BR>
The whole of the UK(*)has a ban on Semi/Automatics and Handguns. IIRC<BR>
rifles and shotguns are controlled with permits. There hasn't been a<BR>
big protest at this.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
(*) ie England *and Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland*....etc<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
                        MiB - Marines in Battledress<BR>
    "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"<BR>
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:32:45 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: ignorance of the law and secret laws<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> We've been talking about whether or in what situations<BR>
> ignorance of the law excuses violating the law.  The<BR>
> answer depends mostly on the type of society. <BR>
> Societies that strive to protect individuals against<BR>
> the government (like the USA, as only one example)<BR>
> generally require that laws be part of the public<BR>
> record, accessible to anyone, before they can be<BR>
> enforced.  The idea is that it is not fair for<BR>
> individuals to be unable to know what conduct is<BR>
> prohibited or regulated.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
There are a significant number of people in prison in the US today who<BR>
have:<BR>
<BR>
Not been told what crime they've committed<BR>
Not been allowed to confronmt their accusers<BR>
Not been allowed to examine, or even know what evidence has been used<BR>
against them<BR>
Not allwed to be present when the indictments were presented to a secret<BR>
court and a secret judge.<BR>
<BR>
All in the name of 'National Security'<BR>
<BR>
Immigration law colliding with so-called 'National Security' BS is an evil<BR>
thing. Particularly when the people who this is happening to were<BR>
originally offered asylum in the US, and when/if they're deported, it will<BR>
be to a firing squad, _if_ they're lucky.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Other societies may have laws that are secret, and it<BR>
> may even be a crime to know the contents of those laws<BR>
> without proper authorization.  In this way, the<BR>
> citizenry are kept afraid that they are unwittingly<BR>
> committing crimes, and the police can always accuse<BR>
> them of criminal conduct and use that as leverage to<BR>
> obtain an advantage.  ("Comrade Shopkeeper, I've<BR>
> examined your books and records, and there appear to<BR>
> be violations of the secret currency laws.  I will<BR>
> allow you to put them in order, and I will return in<BR>
> two days to review them again.  I am sure that they<BR>
> will be in good order at that time.  In addition, I<BR>
> would like to enjoy the company of your daughter<BR>
> between now and then. Do we have an understanding?")<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
What Glenn is describing is a simple totalitarian oppressive dictatorship<BR>
or oligarchy, depending on how many people are on top. It could be a<BR>
simple low law level thugocracy like Somalia, or parts of Russia.<BR>
<BR>
IN this system, in fact, NO law ever needs to be enacted, since the<BR>
enforcers need none to detain or convict anyone. The people with the<BR>
biggest/most guns win the argument.<BR>
<BR>
heh he <BR>
<BR>
until the Man with No Name wanders into town...heh heh<BR>
<BR>
<insert Morricone theme here><BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1301<BR>
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